English transcript:
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:24:13
Grant McDonald
Today on banking on AI, we sit down with Sumee Seetharaman, Head of Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning Practice here at TD. We dive into a number of really interesting topics, but the key area of focus is on talent. What are the skills needed for a career in tech in AI in the near future?
00:00:24:15 - 00:00:48:01
Grant McDonald
Sumee, thanks so much for being here with us today. We are really, really excited to have this conversation with you. And I want to jump right into it. So, your world is a very interesting one. The entire world is talking about AI. I know you can go many layers deep, but if you're out with friends or someone you just met, how do you describe what you do when you're having that conversation with them?
00:00:48:03 - 00:01:04:19
Sumee Seetharaman
Thanks for having me, Grant. So I head the AI center of Excellence for the bank. So for all the amazing cool stuff we work on within Layer Six, my team drives the strategy, the delivery, commercialization of that research, as well as data operations.
00:01:04:21 - 00:01:24:01
Grant McDonald
When you look at your path to getting to what you just described, I'm sure it's a very unique one. Can you walk me through that a little bit, just in terms of where you had to go, how you navigated, and then not only to be in AI, but to lead in AI.
00:01:24:03 - 00:01:52:04
Sumee Seetharaman
Yeah, it's a great question. And it wasn't a linear path. It wasn't very structured, deliberate. I actually got, I stumbled into AI courses in my master's work. I'm going to date myself. But a couple of decades ago, you know, walked into a few classes on biomorphic systems and neural networks. And I was fascinated, really looking at things like, you know, how do biological systems optimize?
00:01:52:06 - 00:02:16:05
Sumee Seetharaman
How do we how do we start to understand intelligence in biological systems? So think armies of ants, you know, marching and finding their way across obstacles. What does that teach us about how you solve the traveling salesman problem as an example, or what do neural networks do? How does a human brain work? And so a lot of, coursework that got me really, really deeply interested in AI.
00:02:16:07 - 00:02:36:06
Sumee Seetharaman
But then as I entered the workforce, I got more into technology, digital innovation. That's been a large part of my journey over the last, I want to say, 15 to 20 years. And it's only recently, I think two years ago, where we started doing two concepts on generative AI, where it's all sort of came back to me.
00:02:36:08 - 00:02:52:10
Sumee Seetharaman
It was fascinating to sort of see what I had learned decades ago in action with the GPT models. And start to commercialize applications within the bank. So it's been a very, nonlinear path, I want to say, into this role, but it's it's fascinating.
00:02:52:15 - 00:03:09:19
Grant McDonald
Well, I mean, even from the beginning, when you started describing the courses you were taking, like, I sort of got by sociology, like your courses seemed a lot more in depth than mine. And if you want to, I'd love just to if you feel like touching on it, you want to talk about it. I'd love to hear from your perspective of not only leading in AI, but leading as a woman in AI.
00:03:09:21 - 00:03:16:09
Grant McDonald
I think that's a really important. So it makes your path even more unique, than many people who are in this world right now.
00:03:16:11 - 00:03:38:11
Sumee Seetharaman
Yeah, it's a great question, Grant. I want to say in early stages of my career, I was often the only woman at the table. Especially as I was working in the in big techs. And over the years, I've seen that representation representation grow more and more women in engineering and computer science. And now in AI.
00:03:38:13 - 00:04:01:20
Sumee Seetharaman
And I think that matters because I, at the end of the day, it has to work for everyone. And so that diversity in thought, you know, in representation shows up in the way we build and the kind of value propositions we deliver to our clients and customers. So very, very proud of the journey TD has been on, and very proud of where we're at in terms of representation even within layer six.
00:04:01:22 - 00:04:25:20
Grant McDonald
And so when we continue to think about the career path and career path of others, you know, Layer Six, this is today's AI world. When you're having conversations with individuals who are interested in this type of work, what what are you suggesting in terms of what types of roles are available at Layer Six? What are we looking for here at TD?
00:04:25:22 - 00:04:34:02
Grant McDonald
What's that next generation, of individuals and colleagues coming in? What goes through your mind when you're sort of planning out and plotting out the future.
00:04:34:03 - 00:04:58:00
Sumee Seetharaman
You know? We actually have a variety of roles we hire for within Layer Six on the machine learning science side itself. We have research focused machine learning scientists. We have applied machine learning scientists. We have technical product owners and lead product owners. We have AI operations folks. So pretty, pretty wide set of skill sets we hire for.
00:04:58:02 - 00:05:29:01
Sumee Seetharaman
But, the common sort of subset of things we look for, we look for folks with a very strong academic grounding in machine learning, strong applied sciences, background physics, mathematics, engineering. As much as you read about coding being dead. We actually look for strong coders. Believe it or not. And so in that and, you know, demonstrated passion, curiosity, side projects, internships, you know, GitHub repositories where you're sharing your, you know, research or projects.
00:05:29:03 - 00:05:59:04
Sumee Seetharaman
These these are things that we're looking for because a lot of what we do within Layer Six doesn't follow an established industry best practice. There is no set recipe. So we're really looking for folks who are not afraid of tinkering, folks who lead with research, lead with curiosity, are able to take on really, really hard problems and work at it and come up with a, you know, a reasonable solution that can be applied in a real world context, in a very methodical, scientific, disciplined way.
00:05:59:06 - 00:06:07:23
Sumee Seetharaman
Lots of tenacity, lots of curiosity, an ability to constantly learn and evolve and almost set the research frontier, not follow it.
00:06:08:01 - 00:06:26:09
Grant McDonald
I really like that. So that is true leadership in AI. And what you've described is a really interesting skill set that you have to have because you're not only, understanding it from the, you know, education that side of things, but like, how do we put this into actual practice? How do we how's the everyday user going to use this?
00:06:26:11 - 00:06:43:01
Grant McDonald
And so looking at that, what do you recommend to individuals who are like trying to get into it, trying to break into a world that is everywhere, but understanding it and leading it is where everyone wants to be.
00:06:43:03 - 00:07:08:20
Sumee Seetharaman
Yeah. I recommend especially for folks who are in college looking to graduate, looking to enter the the domain, leaning into AI, being very curious, learning, tinkering. You know, doing projects, taking internships. If it's a pure, AI development kind of a role, you kind of have to get your hands dirty, and get comfortable and understand the foundations of machine learning really, really well.
00:07:08:22 - 00:07:29:01
Sumee Seetharaman
Having said that, though, AI is going to impact so many different careers, so many different roles, across the ecosystem. So regardless of where you're at, AI is going to impact you one way or the other. So the more you can learn and learn, and learn how I can augment and improve the way you show up in the workforce.
00:07:29:03 - 00:07:31:22
Sumee Seetharaman
That's something I recommend to everybody I speak to like that.
00:07:31:22 - 00:07:55:03
Grant McDonald
And the reality is, and maybe you can speak to it just in terms of some of those challenges that you see for new grads that again, not to date myself either, but at a certain point in time, there was maybe fewer challenges or fewer roadblocks for individuals wanting to get into this world. Do you see challenges for new grads, or is it really to your point, just you have to lean in, tinker, break it a little bit, or there?
00:07:55:04 - 00:07:58:08
Grant McDonald
Are there still things they should be a little cautious of in terms of those challenges?
00:07:58:10 - 00:08:23:02
Sumee Seetharaman
The competition is fierce, right? So if you can differentiate yourself and demonstrate yourself as top talent, I think you'll have a much easier pathway navigating the the job search. The competition is fierce. AI talent is scarce. So it's it's really a, you know, candidates with the right profile, with the right level of curiosity, ability to learn.
00:08:23:04 - 00:08:26:04
Sumee Seetharaman
I actually think they'll navigate the market really, really well.
00:08:26:06 - 00:08:42:01
Grant McDonald
I can tell from your enthusiasm in terms of, as you're describing, this is what you need. This is what we're looking for. You really love what you do. Yes. What about it? Like jumps out at you or you wake up? Not every day. I'm sure you're waking up ready to go, but what is it that really makes you enjoy the work that you do?
00:08:42:03 - 00:09:04:13
Sumee Seetharaman
Two things. I think the the transformational nature of it, the fact that it gives us this blank canvas where we can reimagine, you know, whole lines of businesses and think through transformation. That opportunity to start from a blank, blank slate and reimagine what business could look like. It's fascinating. And the second, is, you know, I'm going to sound nerdy here, the complexity of it.
00:09:04:15 - 00:09:16:22
Sumee Seetharaman
Right? There's just so much to be solved. You know, we haven't practiced, not yet, entirely in terms of how we scale AI massively within the organization. So the complexity of it is a big draw for me.
00:09:17:00 - 00:09:42:19
Grant McDonald
When you're chatting with people about, again, the love of what you're doing and you break it down to those two areas. People are using it to different, varying degrees. Some people will put in a recipe. Some people will say like, how do I be a good podcast host? What is a little catchy? Or what's a little story that you have that you love telling people because, you know, they're facial they're they're going to react to it and they're going to get a kick out of it.
00:09:43:00 - 00:09:46:19
Grant McDonald
When you're talking about the possibilities of AI.
00:09:46:20 - 00:10:05:21
Sumee Seetharaman
Let's do a hack maybe. I'll perhaps take this in a different direction. And of course, correct me if you want to. I love observing how it influences behavior. So I sort of encountered this first hand. I was walking into my son's camp to pick him up, and he's in this techie camp. The kids are playing with AI.
00:10:05:23 - 00:10:29:14
Sumee Seetharaman
So imagine 9 to 12 year olds, with whole sheets of white paper, drawing different kinds of animals. Trying to see if the AI model can recognize what animal they drew. It's just fascinating to watch. The. They're not drawing for esthetics or for the animal to look good. They're drawing so that the model accurately recognizes the head and so just a behavior change it drives was was fascinating to observe.
00:10:29:16 - 00:10:51:16
Grant McDonald
That's so neat to think about in terms of that age group as well. You know we already using and thinking about this when we are looking at current state. You probably get this question all the time okay I use ChatGPT for this now I use Copilot for this now. What does the future look like? What's the answer that you can kind of give them knowing that well there's there's going to be some variation down the road.
00:10:51:16 - 00:10:54:02
Grant McDonald
But this is sort of what I think.
00:10:54:04 - 00:11:15:20
Sumee Seetharaman
You know, it's a great question. And I see two sort of camps, you know, one camp talking about the the number of job cuts and universal basic income and AI is going to replace most of us. And it's I find that narrative a bit. It's all about mechanical efficiency. It's dehumanizing. The reality is I like I belong to the other camp.
00:11:15:21 - 00:11:35:22
Sumee Seetharaman
I like to think of, AI as this sort of pie that is going to lift all boats. Almost all industries, all enterprises, everyone is going to be. It's like electricity. Like a decade from now, we're not going to talk about electricity as a differentiator. Like we didn't talk about electricity as a differentiator. A decade later. And this is going to be much like that.
00:11:35:22 - 00:11:57:04
Sumee Seetharaman
So I, I like to take a more optimistic. You know, I have a more optimistic outlook where I think we have the opportunity to lean in and to drive almost an AI renaissance. How do we show up differently? Right. How do we solve problems differently? What are the next? What's the next frontier of humanity almost using AI.
00:11:57:06 - 00:12:07:09
Sumee Seetharaman
So I like to think we we're going to have better versions of careers and roles and industries in the future, all powered by AI.
00:12:07:11 - 00:12:26:04
Grant McDonald
I think it's a great mindset to have on it and understanding of it. The reality is, over the next couple of years, time goes fast, especially in your world. So 12 months, 24 months or what are we looking at within Layer Six and two when it comes to what's the market looking like for opportunities? What are those jobs that we're looking for over the next two years?
00:12:26:06 - 00:12:53:04
Sumee Seetharaman
Yeah, we we actually, we hire, you know, at, at very different, across a range of levels. So we hire, college grads right out of bachelors, master's, PhD, post-doc programs. We have experienced hires. So pretty broad range of levels we hire for. And I talked about the role diversity earlier, but you you could be a leading researcher who wants to continue pushing that frontier.
00:12:53:09 - 00:13:12:17
Sumee Seetharaman
And Layer Six is the right place for you because you get to publish and you get to drive patterns, and you get to compete and compete with the big techs as part of Layer Six. You could be an applied scientist where you love to take that research and distill it and commercialize it to solve real business problems and drive customer plane impact.
00:13:12:19 - 00:13:30:20
Sumee Seetharaman
There's a place for you. You could be a stellar product owner who really can connect the dots between business problems and use cases and customer propositions. We have a place for you. So I think we hire across a range of disciplines, across a range of levels, across a range of functions.
00:13:30:22 - 00:13:48:09
Grant McDonald
So there's a lot to look out for, for people who are interested in the world of AI. So when we look at, you know, AI is everywhere, big or small, when we look at a place like TD, what are we doing that is unique? And what are our kind of path forward that we know we have to take?
00:13:48:10 - 00:14:11:12
Sumee Seetharaman
I talked about the research, which we're we're very proud of, that we continue to lead on research. The one other specialization that we're really driving is in the area of trustworthy AI. So we now have a team that is, driving responsible AI development within the bank. Both in terms of defining what are the principles we stick by as we build models and deploy them across the bank.
00:14:11:12 - 00:14:43:15
Sumee Seetharaman
But how do we how do we operationalize them, and how do we make sure we're consistently adhering to those principles? This, we feel is crucial. Given that we're, the sector we're in, the pace at which AI is progressing. It's it's incredibly important to make sure we're building AI responsibly. You know, in our partnerships with, academic institutions, our professors often joke that the philosophers and the ethicists are suddenly so in demand.
00:14:43:15 - 00:15:05:08
Sumee Seetharaman
And for good reason. Right. We're building these incredibly complex, large models that are being used in such a ubiquitous way. It's incredibly important to understand under the hood how everything works and does it work the way we intended to. And can it be explained and can it be corrected? These are these are incredibly important topics to address.
00:15:05:14 - 00:15:25:00
Grant McDonald
And I think they're really important to our clients. They're they're asking these questions as well. There's anxiety to a certain degree about what AI is. So it's really good to hear that mindset is that's that's sort of top of mind in terms of where we're going. Sumi, thank you so much for hanging out with us a little bit today, talking about your world.
00:15:25:02 - 00:15:36:18
Grant McDonald
It's been a really, really interesting conversation in particular about the talent of the future and where we're going as a bank. So thank you for leading us through that and your continued leadership through the world of AI.
00:15:36:20 - 00:15:38:21
Sumee Seetharaman
Fantastic conversation. Thanks for hosting me Grant.
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