English transcript:
Grant McDonald
Right now, you or I can create just about any image or video we can imagine using AI. The question, though, is that AI considered art? How do artists see AI and how are they using it? We'll unpack this and more with Stuart Keeler, Senior Curator at TD. He's responsible for the TD Art Collection, a collection of thousands of pieces going back to 1963.
TD Art continues to focus on work that connects clients, colleagues, and helps all of us see the world around us. Today, you can find pieces in branches and corporate offices across the TD footprint. Stuart joins us to talk about AI in his field, how it helps him in his role as a curator, and what AI could mean for human creativity.
Stuart, thanks so much for being here. We really, really appreciate any time we get to have a conversation with you because you have such a vast amount of knowledge about something I don't think a lot of people really understand that TD has, which is a beautiful art collection.
So I'd love just for you to start by kind of walking us through your role, what you do here at the Bank, and kind of what your day to day looks like.
Stuart Keeler
Sure. Thank you for that. So correction, it is a beautiful collection, but it's also iconic, memorable, but also a mature collection.
So 1963 to present. I like to round that out to 60 years, 60 years of a of a banking institution really leading within Canadian culture.
And so what is the tool? What is the role of art? What is the role of, what is the role of the artist? Our job, my team's job and mine, is to care, preserve, conserve and engage our colleagues, clients and customers with the role of art and heritage.
Grant McDonald
And can you walk me through a little bit of the collection? What, what are we looking at? Anytime. You know, people may be at a TD branch or a TD store or one of our corporate offices, and they see it everywhere. Can you walk me through a little bit about what they might see? Not every piece. I don't think we have time for that.
Stuart Keeler
Sure. Heck. Okay. That's my Midwestern coming out. Yeah. So the collection is really interesting because so from 1963 to the present, it's always been a very active collection. There is over 1,200 locations of art across North America alone. So to the bankers out there, some of the data might be really interesting. There are 8,000 works in the collection, and there's over 1,000 Inuit pieces in the collection, as well as over 1,000 Indigenous art, People's art collection works in the collection as well.
And so there's sculpture, drawing, painting, etc. but it's always, but the collection is also very focused on geography, is that we acquire work or present works by artists who are representing the regions in which TD banks. And so that's from Florida to Maine, New York City from Quebec City, all the way to the Yukon, back down to Vancouver, through the prairies and back to Toronto. And so we are a, an international collection, really in that perspective. And so the collection is really a machine in itself. It's a constantly moving and it's based upon the notion of art creates conversation.
And art is not a tool of decoration at TD, but rather, you're not supposed to like the art.
And our CEO in 1963. These are his quotes is that, you know, art is not about dollars in decoration, but it's about creating the conversation.
And so today, this still is relatively our mandate because you are mandated really to open up a dialog. And that is really the role of the artist, is creating conversation.
Grant McDonald
That's such a unique way to look at it. And I mean, it's creating this conversation.
I'd love to take us now, since this is a podcast all about AI. Bring that into the conversation. What does that look like now in your world?
I think we'll get into what it means for the artist, what it means for art overall. But I'd love to get a sense from you in terms of how you're seeing AI sort of bleed into the work that you're doing.
Stuart Keeler
So on a day to day action, going back to that question is that our team are very adept. They're museum-trained curators. They are art professionals. So they are very curious within technology and how to use technology that is emerging in which to assist them in the work. Our team are very fast-paced and our asks are ongoing and an endless list of opportunities.
And so AI does assist us with research understanding what is going on beyond Canada. So looking at more of a global perspective in research of what's happening in art, heritage, and culture. Our roles are also very much about to know artists and to understand what is happening in culture and how these two pieces inform the larger breadth of Canadian or North American experiences of our clients.
And so this way, AI does is a, I would call an expedited recovery in doing that research, the Google searches may be taken an aside and AI has come forward with that.
Grant McDonald
And so you're able to look at it in terms of, again, research is a lot of what you're doing on the art, on the artists. Have you found it sort of taking you down paths you didn't expect, which then leads to kind of more questions and more curiosity from your end?
Stuart Keeler
I love that question. So as our team are art historians, we are trained researchers and academics in which to leverage library resources. And so within that is that. we're also trained to work with people. And so an art historian or a curator is really a conversational catalyst, if you will. AI might attempt to remove that connection, human piece. But I think here at TD, obviously the human element is very much present. So again, going back to the art historian and the professional researching aspect is that we always are wanting to find the highest and the best information. And so oftentimes if there is something that is scripted through an AI question, we would then go to a human. We would then question and open up that conversation. So, so that dialog piece, maybe the maybe AI is assisting us in having higher level conversation that really get to the meat of the problem or the issue or the artist's concept and context. I think that might be, at this moment one of the most interesting parts is that you can go deeper, faster, but then your human curiosity really comes out because AI is assisting you in which to expedite that.
Grant McDonald
And that's it. You know, that's, that's your critical thinking, which is the human aspect of it, for sure.
I'm sure you have a number of different examples, but I'd love for you to kind of walk me through either an artist or someone in the community that you know, and kind of tell me about how they're using it, what they're finding, and maybe its kind of cultural impact in terms of what they've seen or how they're using it.
Stuart Keeler
Great. And I love this question. Artists are just so everybody under, we're level setting, is that they are trained to be researchers, they are trained to be curious, and they are trained to be critical thinkers. And so, but they're also artists are trained to mine the precedents of art history.
So from the caves of Lascaux, if you will, all the way to the present, it could even be their neighbour who is also another artist in the studio next to them. They could be taking those ideas. And that is what the art world really prides itself on. Or it's just an expectation that this is happening.
And so with that, there is an artist named Sanaz Mazinani who lives here in Toronto who has an international reputation. Her work is in the collection. We have two pieces by her that are definitely AI in form.
There are some artists who are using AI in which to use their voice to teach it to sing, which I think is really interesting and remarkable.
So it's using sound and technology and also just voice in a really inventive way.
I think that AI within art making has a great potential in which to really open up conversation on what is art.
So the best art, in my view, is when it represents or connects to our own human expression or on human lived experience. And if you go back to anytime you've had a moment with an art piece in a museum or at home or in a gallery, and it's really resonated with you, that is that human piece that is coming through and a powerful concept through material invention that is really beginning to relate to you.
Can AI do that? I don't know, but I think that the singing piece is really quite interesting.
And back to Sanaz Mazinani is that her work is using it and questioning really its voice of authority, which I think is really powerful, because if you think of George Orwell and you think of Margaret Atwood and other writers who question, who question the role of authority and like a larger kind of global governmental way, how is AI really kind of going to counteract that or circumvent that, or use that to its advantage within art making, which I think is really great.
Grant McDonald
You know, there's a couple of questions I want to get into about creativity and what that looks like. But before we get into that, I'd love to get a sense of, you know, when you look at not only the role of AI in the creation of art, the artist themselves, what they're taking from, because there's a lot of conversation around copyright, there's a lot of conversation around, well, if it's creating something, it's obviously taking from somewhere, you know, the old saying, you know, art imitating life. I'd love to get your opinion on. What does that actually mean? Because at the end of the day, throughout history, artists look around and they build something based on what they see. So is AI just doing that at a different level?
Stuart Keeler
Yes, and maybe it is. AI will be assisting people to dig deeper into their own self-consciousness as they are being curious.
What is the truth being said there? How are they fact-checking that? And how are they really owning what is coming up there? It can't just be a copy and paste and I'm done. But rather, what are you doing to really turn that around? Because that's maybe where the art making happens.
Art happens when we see something that we might know, and it's been flipped around by concept or by material, or even in our physical experience of it.
And so that I don't know if AI can necessarily do that. I hope it can. And I hope that this is just the first step of what it is. But at the same time, I embolden artists to really invent with it and to really begin thinking about where the power or the creativity might lie in that, and also to maybe mirror what our world is.
And I think that could be really interesting.
I have not seen it yet. I mean, I'm researching and looking at art all the time as part of my role, but at the same time, what is really what are some of the frameworks, and I question, that are helping artists really to use it as a platform in a new way other than emulation, research, copyright infringements, or using it as a really interesting way to make art, but challenge it and its failure.
I think that might be where the where the art making might be, and to a degree Sanaz Mazinani is doing that.
And I think that that's where it becomes interesting.
Grant McDonald
That is.
Stuart Keeler
But you have to know what you're looking at. And so that requires reading the text.
Right. You can't just look at it and go, oh, that's AI and she's doing x, y, z. But rather there's complexity and problems. But it's also. It's a story behind it, you know, so many pieces of art you look at in that the full picture is what is behind what you're seeing. And I don't think that changes with AI.
Grant McDonald
I am curious about if we look back through history, technology changes every day.
Stuart Keeler
It does.
Grant McDonald
AI is a big one, but if you look throughout history and what has happened over time, be it new platforms for artists to showcase their work, a more connected world because of the internet, different types of art is delivered through different types of mediums.
I'm very curious as to, as you look back, what those changes have looked like and how significant they are, and then can we compare it to what we're looking at now when it comes to AI?
Stuart Keeler
Yeah, that's exciting because that's what art history tells us. Impressionism, Cubism, surrealism, sculpture for that matter, in the 1950s was seen as radical and new.
Jean-Paul Riopelle on the 54th floor of TD Bank Tower here at TD Centre, was seen as a radical painting in its period.
And here we are now and we adore and we really hold high that particular work.
I look at photography, which was it's art, it's not art.
And those conversations really being and kind of fading away maybe 10 to 15 years ago, honestly.
And now photography is accepted as a true art form. Same with video as well, is that it's it kind of comes and goes, but it's also based on the power of the artist and the voice and what you are, what experience is being crafted and what you are being enveloped in.
And so with AI, it would be the same thing. But I do think that they're challenging it to be better. And questioning its authenticity might be where the humour and the comical part would come through. And I think that, that's I think that's where the potential is. So yes, it's like it's perfect for artists to lead us. And I do want to embolden them. And I ask artists every time I'm meeting one, you know, how is AI influencing you? Some shrug their shoulders. A painter might, you know, kind of look forlorn because their world of technology might not necessarily touch the canvas, you know what I'm saying?
Grant McDonald
That's a very good point. And so that leads me to sort of my next question in terms of we talk a lot about the art that we have here. And you and your team do so much work to make sure it's relevant, to make sure it is on display, to make sure it is part of history. And I'm very curious, when you come to look at future pieces, are you and your team looking at how do we bring in more either AI generated or the term you used before is AI-informed? Are you looking at that in terms of saying, we'd like to add this piece to our collection, knowing that AI was involved in it somehow?
Stuart McDonald
Absolutely. So part of our mandate is to be current and to ensure that the TD Collection is not falling behind, but also we are emboldening our own competitors, if you will, into also within the art and culture space.
And so if we are having conversations with artists, etc., we want to ensure that other curators know we are doing that and that this is a space that we are curious about, and curiosity does create opportunity, but at the same time, it does make you move a little slower with thought.
And so yes, we are moving slowly in that direction. There are, I'm told, through our team, 4 to 5 works that we have that are AI generated, but they are largely within the photographic image category of the Collection.
And that's interesting in itself. I believe that they are all Toronto artists as well, which is interesting.
You know, in the Canadian legions of art history, in the art world, Vancouver is the image capital, if you will.
Grant McDonald
Okay.
Stuart Keeler
And so there is something interesting in that to me, that maybe there's something more AI and that neck of the woods and more research needs to happen.
Grant McDonald
And on that in terms of, so you're seeing that and that that's kind of neat to see that that shifting. And I'm always curious about trends and if you're seeing any trends in where we currently are or potential future trends when it comes to this type of work and the use of AI.
Stuart Keeler
Yes. Going back to the notion of invention and how our history does inform us and how AI is new, and it might be shrugged or seen with some fear or contempt, and it might be embraced by others.
All of the artistic movements since really the dawn of time. But to starting around Impressionism, surrealism, any modernism really.
Sculpture at one time was seen as very radical using plastic.
How dare you do that? Where's the bronze? This, this kind of conversation?
And so AI is not necessarily an art movement. It's a tool in which to make art potentially.
And how, what will come out of that? Will there be a movement that like photography or like video that was eschewed or kind of pushed away?
Will AI really begin generating the next evolution of conversation?
I think that's really interesting because art's role really is to challenge us and to challenge thinking, but also challenge the status quo. And to a degree, that's the form and the creation of a collection as well is that it should be doing that, is that it can have beautiful things, but it can also have works that question you, and AI and technology within this space is wide open for invention.
And I hope that there is something that really is gravitational change. And AI can maybe lead artists to do that because it's enabling them, in some way or fashion, to think differently.
Grant McDonald
Listen, Stuart, you know, thank you so much for joining us today. When a lot of people think of AI and art, they think worlds apart. The way you're describing it today, it's closer than ever before. And I think there's a lot to look forward to in the future and where we go. So I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
Stuart Keeler
Thank you.
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